Watches - another OCD problem
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Considering the Tudor Black Bay variations, but dropping that kind of jack I feel like I should be at least considering a used rolex/omega/tag etc.
I need to go to a local dealer and try some on.
Also in the opinion of people with more experience in the industry, is it stupid of me to buy grey market or should I buy direct from an authorized dealer?
Photo from Joma shop…
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All I can say is that you will have a lot more value preservation with a used Rolex than with a new Tudor. Make sure you only get the Rolex from a reputable dealer. There is at least one renowned specialist in used Rolex, https://davidsw.com .
Rolex, Tudor, Omega, and Tag are not at the same level, and I'm not sure what the consensus is these days in terms of ranking (well, Rolex is #1)… I get the impression that Tudor's reputation has improved a lot in the last few years. I like the Pelagos myself...
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@Dishelveled I'd be tempted to take a look at Tudor Black Bay Fifty-Eight too, which is slightly smaller, and a quite a bit thinner than the original. Hodinkee have a hands on.
Tudor's original in-house movement bigger than the ETA they originally used, and this makes the case a bit thicker. A few people prefer the earlier models as a result.
The Pelagos, as @JDelage suggested, would be another option. They have a titanium case, which will make them a bit lighter.
The Black Bay Fifty-Eight is $3575 on a bracelet. For a bit more ($4400) you could get an Omega Seamaster Diver 300 Metres.
It's probably a step up from the Tudor in terms of finish and materials, and it's got Omega's clever, anti-magnetic movement in it. I saw a pre-release model a few months ago, and it's a nice watch. Hodinkee did a hands on at Baselworld and took one diving.
A Submariner costs from about $7500 and up. Due to Rolex's sales practices, you'll probably be told by a dealer that you can't have one, and as a result they tend to sell at a premium on the secondary market.
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Thanks for the replies, JD and Grame!
Value retention should probably be higher on my priorities, as well as looking into service pricing of grey market watches–esp those with in house movements.
I was def concerned about the dimensions of the Black Bay untill I had it on wrist and was surprised how unobtrusive it felt (actually made me consider going for their larger bronze version).
I dont like the aluminum bezel and would probably go for an aftermarket leather strap.
Still feel there would be room for the Sinn 104 i, between that and the S&G bb I feel I'd be covered for 95% of my watch wear.
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I'd suggest looking at this article from Time and Tide: Why you shouldn’t think about investment value when buying a new watch.
A Rolex will hold its value well, but they also make somewhere between 600,000 and 1,000,000 watches a year, so there's not exactly a shortage. I think that their increase in value on resale is down to supply being artificially limited, and my suspicion is that if you order one, it'll arrive a whole lot sooner than you're quoted.
I probably wouldn't go grey market for a Tudor. Jomashop's discount is around 15% for most of the models, less for the hotter pieces, and you could probably negotiate something off from a dealer. (Unless you want the awesome Black Bay Black, which is 30% off the next few days.) For that you lose the factory warranty.
You can probably get your grey market watch serviced by the factory. I'd check with the company, and also ask about service intervals. I think that Omega suggest every seven years, I don't know about Tudor.
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If you're looking to retain value, buy used.
Even at gray market prices, you're going to lose money.
No guarantee you'll get your money back if you buy used either, unless you get a really good deal.
One of the reasons why I've waffled back and forth on new purchases and haven't bought a luxury watch in awhile is because I go with a mindset of "I'm stuck with this thing forever" when I buy a watch.
I bought an Omega Deville dress watch a few years ago and asked my AD what they'd offer me for it (I originally thought I would wear it more often than I did). They offered me $425. I paid about $2k new. It's been worn once, maybe twice. -
Omega's suggested service interval is based on the movement. I think the 2500D is every three years. I believe 8500 is 5 years.
I believe most manufacturers will service a watch without the warranty for the full cost of the service, UNLESS the serial number is scratched out, which some gray market dealers will do.
I don't mess with gray market personally. -
^^^This is great info^^^–really appreciate everyone's input.
Sinn 104 I St Sa on leather is en route from the AD
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If you are looking for a standard submariner ( non date 114060 model ) my advice would be talk to a few of your closest AD's and register an interest in the watch. Supply of this model watch is not too bad.
I am looking for a new watch at the moment and have been frustrated by the so called Rolex supply shortage. One of the pieces I expressed an interest in was the non date sub 114060. I have been offered 3 of them at RRP from UK based AD's in the last six months. Basically the 114060 is not that hard to get.
I turned down all of the offers as I am having to select a single watch as my days of owning a multiple watch collection are no more. I am having to choose carefully and need a watch for all occasions and I prefer other models as a "one and only" piece compared to the non date sub.
I believe the Rolex supply problem is mainly to do with unscrupulous AD's selling out the back door to the Grey market. Unfortunately that leaves genuine enthusiast customers such as myself out in the cold. Just check Chrono 24 to see how many "hot models" are available ( at a premium ), this tells you where some Rolex inventory is ending up.
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I had a recent conversation with a UK based AD I have used previously and have bought several Patek pieces from, so I am not exactly an unknown quantity to them.
I was told that the hot Rolex models were being personally allocated to their clients by the group chairman. This particular AD ran two interest lists, a paid deposit list and an "interest list". Deposits were non returnable also, this has made me steer clear of this AD.Tongue in cheek, I politely told them where to go unless they could get me membership to the chairman's golf club as without a personal connection with the bloke I would not have any chance of snagging one of the hot ticket items through this AD.
Not all AD's work like this I have to say. Another AD I have been in conversation with were much more pragmatic in their approach. They recognised I was an enthusiast and not out to sell the watch on at a profit. They asked me my thoughts on the AD's keeping the warranty cards for up to a year to prevent the watch being flipped ( warranty card retention is an increasingly common practice now at Rolex AD's ). I stated that I would have no problem with this. The salesman was simply gauging my reaction to his question as his store have not adopted this policy. I am hoping that this AD can find me the watch I am looking for in a reasonable timescale, hopefully within the next 12 months.
All of this for a mass produced Swiss watch, seems a bit daft? Having said that I am still sat on several waiting lists for the pieces I am looking to buy.
If you are looking for a modern Rolex and don't want to pay Grey prices, try and speak to as many AD's as possible and register interest with them. The UK is a fairly small place so personal visits to several AD's is achievable with relative ease. Doing this in the US might be more difficult due to distances between each AD, you may need to build these connections with the sales team via phone conversations.
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I was told that the hot Rolex models were being personally allocated to their clients by the group chairman. This particular AD ran two interest lists, a paid deposit list and an "interest list". Deposits were non returnable also.
They asked me my thoughts on the AD's keeping the warranty cards for up to a year to prevent the watch being flipped ( warranty card retention is an increasingly common practice now at Rolex AD's ).
All of this for a mass produced Swiss watch, seems a bit daft?
Yes. Yes, it does.
Though, since I'm a profane American, rather than a politely understated Brit, I'd substitute "fucking bullshit" for "a bit daft"…
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Who are they to withhold the warranty cards? They’ve created the flipping problem in the first place.
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I've heard a few anecdotes of Rolex watches coming through a lot quicker than dealers quote. People have got Submariners or GMTs within three or four weeks of ordering, rather than eighteen months plus, and even a steel Daytona is likely to arrive within a year.
That said, the only places that I've seen a Daytona, Sky-Dweller, or 50th Anniversary Sea-Dweller are grey market stores. One of the staff there said the dealers are passing these pieces out of the back door to them, as @ddtrash said, so I suspect that there is some bad behaviour in the retail chain.
I think that a lot of the problem is that the waiting lists are often at the dealer's prerogative. If it was strictly in order of deposit (sorry, local VIP, you have to wait in the queue), it'd be a lot more transparent. And if you're telling new customers that they can't even order a Rolex, you're not going to grow your client base, which could be a problem down the line.
@Anesthetist it's probably not the best solution, but if it helps, that'd be a good thing. But Rolex probably like their watches selling at a premium on the secondary market, as it increases their desirability.
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Thoughts on this Spring Drive Seiko GMT (SBDB015) at ~$2600?
https://www.seiko-watch.co.jp/collections/en/prospex/SBDB015
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Thoughts on this Spring Drive Seiko GMT at ~$2600?
I like it. I would probably not spend a lot on a Seiko if I were looking at it as an investment, but Spring Drive is accurate and with a long reserve (both good things for a travel watch), and that movement has the rare jumping hours feature that IMO makes a GMT a GMT. This seems to be Grand Seiko minus the level of internal and external finishing. I do fall on the side of thinking the power reserve indicator is unwelcome and unnecessary, but it wouldn't be enough to drive me off. If I were looking at that price range, I would be tempted to shell out a bit more for one of the quartz Grand Seiko GMTs @Graeme posted previously, or perhaps for the Tudor GMT.
For my GMT, I went with the fugly Seiko diver I posted earlier, which has a quartz (kinetic) movement and true GMT function. It is more casual but seemed like a good value for what I wanted.
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It's big and tall, but the titanium case will be light and relatively comfortable. The crown at 12 intrigues me, though I'm guessing you'll have to take it off to set it, which is probably annoying in a GMT. I usually think Seikos have ugly hands, but these are simple and attractive. And it's a personal thing, but I'm always annoyed when manufacturers don't match the dial and date wheel; the black on white in a black dial just bugs me. Spring Drive is just cool. For the price, it's probably a solid buy.
If I had a sexy Grand Seiko like you do, I wouldn't buy it, though…
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Here's the monstrosity that arrived today. I think I'm good on GMT now, this is what I wanted, and the ruggedness (including sapphire crystal, rare in Seiko divers) is more of a benefit than the dive readiness.
The dial has a lot of depth, including really deep lumes, and I dig the radial brush finish on the case–reminds me of the Omega Bullhead case.
I fitted a reversible rubber strap but really like the bracelet for most of my daily use. Very pleased with my first diver!
