Supply and Demand of Iron Heart Products
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It's wild that you even have the option to "throttle production" in this economy but speaking purely from a business perspective, given your growth, "if it ain't broke, done fix it"–why even entertain changing anything if the growth is what it is?
If the Outlet starts getting crowded, maybe then, but I wouldn't let "collectors" (myself included) influence my operation if I were you. It sounds to me like you don't need my help
Plus, the weirdos on this forum are likely outliers anyway.Speaking for myself, if the UHF drops were more spread out, I'd have grabbed this season's herringbone, and the more people who have a garment that makes them happy, the happier I am (don't care at all about scarcity--quality and aesthetics are my only criteria).
Imagining that you'd rather have a broader selection of fewer items that you have to warehouse for a shorter period of time than a deep selection of fewer items that it takes longer to get rid of, I would think the answer is to err on the side of diversity over depth of products, and maybe that's why we're seeing more UHF models (maybe I'm wrong about that)?
Why do you care to ask this question? Why does the secondary market matter? Is the concern long-term brand cache? Or is this a simple matter of curiosity?
Nice of you to ask, either way
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Pure curiosity, and really wondered if anyone had any additional input to give.
We entertain changing anything, all the time and at any time if we think it will make a positive difference. To customer experience, to our profit, or more product going through the workshops, we don't really care as long as something gets better.
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@Alex has already explained that we decided to go very long this season on UHF's to see what the current ceiling is. We have a lot left in stock, because we went far too long, but at least we now have decent data about what we can sell. When we don't make enough, we have no idea if we could have sold 1 more, 10 more, 100 more or 1000 more.
Ultra Heavy Flannel sales are up about 20% on 2021.
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Why do you care to ask this question? Why does the secondary market matter? Is the concern long-term brand cache? Or is this a simple matter of curiosity?
I don’t know the answer to that question, but perhaps something to do with buying patterns and the perceived value of UHF’s? When they were in limited numbers, shirts became “classics”, “grails” etc. That isn’t a dynamic anymore due to the increase in availability, not only through IHUK but through an increasingly large network of retailers.
A few years back after TFH folded I said to Giles, “you’re the only game in town now”,’ in reference to UHF’s. To a degree that is still the case, although I sense that UES flannels are getting some traction. UHF’s rarely end up on sale, when they do it’s outlying sizes. Would it hurt perception of the brand to have their increasingly iconic UHF’s reduced in price on a larger scale? Is it better for the brand to have sought-after “grail” items’again? I don’t know, but that may be part of the conversation. Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown.
EDIT: started writing this before Giles posted and finished and posted it afterwards, without seeing his answer.
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Plus, the weirdos on this forum are likely outliers anyway.
Haha, proud weirdo-outlier here
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One thing that strikes me as funny as I read back some of the comments is that calling things ugly is sort of a moot point, as it's so subjective. I will completely agree based on my own opinion that several of this year's UHFs were not my fave, but I do happen to know lots of people out there really loved them.
That does bring up a question I've always had, though: what rhyme or reason is there to designing a season's flannel patterns?
I do know that when FW22 was announced, there were clear winners — people really seemed to go nuts over the black and white herringbone, while something like the crazy check got less attention (at least iirc). Have y'all ever considered floating ideas for flannel patterns before going into production?
I know that could go against the way Haraki does things, but I feel like it would at least be a cool thing to maybe try once. I would venture to guess that as a general principle, people are willing to spend a big chunk of change on a shirt that's versatile, vs a really wild pattern they might not wear as much, and it might be worth a shot to sort of focus group / verify that a little.
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One thing that strikes me as funny as I read back some of the comments is that calling things ugly is sort of a moot point, as it's so subjective. I will completely agree based on my own opinion that several of this year's UHFs were not my fave, but I do happen to know lots of people out there really loved them.
I know what you mean here but I think part the reasoning for making those ugly comments is that some of those odd colors and patterns most likely sold because the IH colors are so rich and vibrant in real life that they are more about showcasing what's possible for IH and less about actually being attracted to the offering as a whole.
At least for me, I have a couple pieces that I'm just attracted to the beauty in the richness of the colors but I would much rather prefer a toned down ( less loud ) pattern and color combo. Earth tones and such.
The pieces that get the most use for me are simple, solid colored shirts….I don't think I'm alone. Maybe I am, or maybe we are all weirdos
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Maybe quantities produced for the crazy check or more loud patterned UHF's should be scaled back. Then you could produce more of the versatile patterned/colored UHF's. This should satisfy the customer/collector looking for a rare or scarce UHF while at the same time offering good availability in the popular colorways. However, predicting what colorways will be popular may be difficult to determine…. Also, maybe you guys already do this to a certain extent. I don't know that's my 2 cents anyhow. Keep up the good work your products are amazing.
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Kind of a shame that this discussion has turned to a critique of certain designs. Designing clothing is a craft that takes a lot of skill and many years to learn to do well. I trust Iron Heart's ability to bring out good collections. I wouldn't want the brand to make the output more conservative because some of us think doing so would sell better. It sounds more like the uhf numbers this year were a particular experiment about production, supply, and demand capacities. With respect and deference to the Iron Heart teams in Japan and UK, I trust they know what they are doing with colour. That design is why we're all here in the first place and it has been going for 20 years.
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Thanks, Nik.
If we wanted to play it safe, we could, then we would not be the brand we are. Part of what makes us what we are, is that we try some out-there shit. We know that not everything we make will sell, but we don't know what.
So let's move on from the "I don't like that colour or that design", it's not particularly helpful. I dislike black jeans, but they sell pretty well, I hate slim cuts, but they do pretty well too.
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Contrast right now to when I started buying IH. My first shirt was the 101 turquoise/grey. I had to go to the used market because at the time you couldn't buy a flannel from IH until they released a new shirt. If someone shows up today to IH, there's ample stock for them to buy a few things.
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If someone shows up today to IH, there's ample stock for them to buy a few things.
I think the above has to be a good thing at the end of the day. Perhaps less great for retailers to be holding stock they thought they’d sell, but a good thing form IHUK to offer choices of one of their flagship products to first time visitors.
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I’m not going to lie, but I used to enjoy the entire logging on 5 minutes before, hoping the internet doesn’t crash, not being interrupted while I tried to enter my details, the IH website crashing, but ultimately succeeding and or failing and trying it all over again on the next big release.
I love that everyone has a chance now and love to see how far things have progressed.
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I’m not going to lie, but I used to enjoy the entire logging on 5 minutes before, hoping the internet doesn’t crash, not being interrupted while I tried to enter my details, the IH website crashing, but ultimately succeeding and or failing and trying it all over again on the next big release.
I love that everyone has a chance now and love to see how far things have progressed.
I liked that whole thing too. It's exhilarating.
Not that it matters, but my whole comment responding to the critiques on design originated in being put-off by the unconstructive criticism. It kinda morphed into something else as I typed, and I think maybe didn't end up the way I wanted it to, or at least wasn't understood in that reply to me. Anyway, no particular season is going to make everybody happy — that's just impossible. Which just circles back to my thing about that kind of subjective comment being a moot point.
I do like the idea of seeing some potential ideas for patterns, so I'll stand behind that comment!
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Which just circles back to my thing about that kind of subjective comment being a moot point.
I enjoyed your original post and I 100% agree with the above…...
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Cheers, Giles
I’ve dug this thread. -
I absolutely hate hype purchases and the associated stress. I prefer a more leisurely buying process that isn’t threatened by other commitments that might interfere with a drop.
Probably in part due to PTSD from stressful live music ticket purchases. At least IH operates in good faith though.
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I love reading these responses!!
Agree with scarcity, rarity, and exclusivity comments and how they drive sales. Look at Rolex over the last 4 or 5 years and how everyone was going nuts for them. Individuals spending 3 or 4 times msrp at grey market dealers just to own a Rolex.
If Rolex increased production or even just published their production numbers, the market would plummet when people realized there are 1000, 10000, 100000 watches just like theirs. The magic and mystery behind the brand would be gone…
I love your quote G., about predicting the future and often think about it. Let me know when you figure it out
Interesting point here on Rolex. I follow the rolex prices/news regularly. They have just announced a CPO (certified pre-owned) arrangement. So you can now buy certified watches from stores that stock Rolex versus worrying you may get scammed with a fake from Joe Bloggs on the street.
I'd imagine fake IHs are much less prevalent and this may be covered by the 'pre-loved' section but perhaps there is a way that can be extended and IH become more involved in the re-selling aspect.
Having purchased a few items on the for sale boards here I have been lucky enough to deal with some great people including IH's own Olly but can't say my heart doesn't skip a beat as I push send on transferring money to an unknown.
Perhaps if we knew the products sold were 100% legit it may boost sales on the forum. I do however suspect, it would be a logistical nightmare and that the sales section is not the main driver for joining the IH forum.
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I was thinking about something similar recently, @kingsselvedge, but on reflection I think that between the RE:LOVE section, the main site and the forum's marketplace which is pretty carefully watched by @neph93 and @goosehd for scammers, we are happy with our offerings