Supply and Demand of Iron Heart Products
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not that anyone really cares about my thoughts, but I almost posted something like this a couple months ago when a comment was made by Giles? or someone that the reservation / notify me of restock lists are poor predictors of demand for an item. For me the reason why I've "flaked" on some (most) of these restock notifications is because they took so long, for whatever reason, and in that time, I found something else to take its intended place, often a similar item IH makes that released first that cannibalized the sale of the first item. (e.g. got a 14oz jacket b/c 19L's are still not in stock, got a kersey b/c the uhf i wanted was out, etc)
Where this led me, and what I was going to post back then, which is perhaps fitting in this thread, is that it occurred you all may have too many items, in too many cuts, in too many fabrics, colors, styles, etc etc. The permutations add up quickly and don't usually seek to meet the baseline demand of your "core product" and in some cases actually dilute your ability to meet demand by using limited amounts of fabrics on these different permutations. The things you wish to be defined by, other than amazing customer service, should always be in stock or always soon due so that anyone wanting to join the club is only a couple of weeks out. Perhaps this could be something like keeping XHS and 21oz in all of your jeans ready to go, or whatever makes sense for you. I recall someone again from the IH crew making a comment about limited fabric qty on high demand items during the sale and how those were excluded, so that's where this thought came from as well.
On the other hand, focusing on these core items and giving priority will detract from your ability to try new things to keep existing customers from buying more and also attracting new folks with what's around the corner for FW or SS. I get that too, but this past season seemed to be flooded with options. Personally I was amazed at the capacity given what I thought was the case and also confused by why some things I've been waiting on are still not in stock.
I guess the TL;DR here is to do less / make less so you can focus on what makes IH, IH. Maybe this post is a bit extreme, but in general this was inspired by other Japanese hobbies (tenkara, natural sharpening stones, knives, deep sea jigging) where they seek to do the absolute best with the minimal amount of whatever.
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Anyone from IH can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the limitations on keeping core items like 21oz denim in stock at all times is due to the factory’s ability to weave the denim in the first place. Then once a batch of denim is made, this has to be spread across so many cuts to keep everyone in jeans that fit, it’s been a constant battle to rotate the denim they’re able to weave among the patterns that are most needed at any given time.
I’m sure there’s more nuance to it than that, but we are dealing with special fabrics that are being made in smallish batches by small factories. Only so much growth can be accommodated.
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Ann, 100% correct. But it is (of course) more complicated and nuanced than that, Alex and I recently offered to pre-buy a shit load of denim and have it stored, so that we could get it into the workshops quickly, rather than wait for the denim to be woven, our answer "that is not how we work" - it was a brick wall conversation…..
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Yeah I think they'd love to have all of the core denims available all the time, but that was hard even before the pandemic.
My previous musings aside, I think my core feeling is that everything feels pretty alright at the moment in terms of breadth and availability. There's always something I want that isn't available and I have to wait, but whenever it arrives, it's a nice feeling.
But yep, it all feels pretty Goldilocks. Any more items would probably be overwhelming, any less might feel a little boring.
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Yeah I think they'd love to have all of the core denims available all the time
And plenty of production capacity in the workshops…....
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Just adding my two cents as a customer since 2017, and lurker since 2015, who has purchased a number of UHF shirts.
I alas agree with others on the UHFs that the issue is obvious and fundamental: they're ugly. I find the shades of green and blue really odd - neither dark, nor light.
It might be a different story with the nicer shade of (emerald?) green that was used on the 203/206. I should add that I would snap up a 264 emerald green/black ombre in a heartbeat.
Could an issue be the lack of pattern symmetry at the front? Not all previous collections have been fully symmetrical, but these stand out to me.
It is the main reason I opted against the 335. Great idea and nice colours but lacking in final execution. I hope slow 335 sales do not dissuade you from making more herringbone UHFs - there's so much potential there.
With the ombre shirts, 180, 203/206s, and 230, the patterns line up better with shirt when it is buttoned up. These are much more appealing designs, in my view.
The front of the garment is the customers' first impression. The 336/342 and how the white doubles up clumsily at the front, it is a surprising lack of attention to detail. I concede that I am fussy, and usually opt for less loud designs. However, IH also prides itself on the details.
On non-UHF garments, and looking at the outlet, I think you could reduce your outerwear offering, with more focus on your own icons.
Outside of the denim jackets (including rider's jacket), no light cotton piece of IH outerwear has ever done it for me. But I could be wrong, I don't have access to the sales figures, of course.
I also snapped up a IHW-11 at full price and was surprised to see it end up in the outlet. So what do I know. No regrets on that one, by the way. I hope that my comments are read as constructive as I intended. Thank you.
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Does personal taste play a role? I certainly believe so. I find, and I'm sorry to say so, most of the current UHF butt ugly. The 335 was my take from the lineup, but that was about it. The 340 I probably would have taken if I hadn't bought a previous iteration of that design used on eBay before. I have the last two crazy check flannels from the years before, but the colours of the 336 make me cringe. Sorry.
I actually agree with you, to a lesser degree here. I think this seasons flannels was one of the most polarising of recent years, and also there were some similar colours (anny and other sax, for eg).
I do check the R&H Sayonara page more often than is probably healthy, and a number of loud shirts from a variety of brands have been sitting there for a very long time, in a range of sizes, at a steep discount too. So perhaps something a number of brands will be revisiting.
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It's wild that you even have the option to "throttle production" in this economy but speaking purely from a business perspective, given your growth, "if it ain't broke, done fix it"–why even entertain changing anything if the growth is what it is?
If the Outlet starts getting crowded, maybe then, but I wouldn't let "collectors" (myself included) influence my operation if I were you. It sounds to me like you don't need my help
Plus, the weirdos on this forum are likely outliers anyway.Speaking for myself, if the UHF drops were more spread out, I'd have grabbed this season's herringbone, and the more people who have a garment that makes them happy, the happier I am (don't care at all about scarcity--quality and aesthetics are my only criteria).
Imagining that you'd rather have a broader selection of fewer items that you have to warehouse for a shorter period of time than a deep selection of fewer items that it takes longer to get rid of, I would think the answer is to err on the side of diversity over depth of products, and maybe that's why we're seeing more UHF models (maybe I'm wrong about that)?
Why do you care to ask this question? Why does the secondary market matter? Is the concern long-term brand cache? Or is this a simple matter of curiosity?
Nice of you to ask, either way
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Pure curiosity, and really wondered if anyone had any additional input to give.
We entertain changing anything, all the time and at any time if we think it will make a positive difference. To customer experience, to our profit, or more product going through the workshops, we don't really care as long as something gets better.
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@Alex has already explained that we decided to go very long this season on UHF's to see what the current ceiling is. We have a lot left in stock, because we went far too long, but at least we now have decent data about what we can sell. When we don't make enough, we have no idea if we could have sold 1 more, 10 more, 100 more or 1000 more.
Ultra Heavy Flannel sales are up about 20% on 2021.
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Why do you care to ask this question? Why does the secondary market matter? Is the concern long-term brand cache? Or is this a simple matter of curiosity?
I don’t know the answer to that question, but perhaps something to do with buying patterns and the perceived value of UHF’s? When they were in limited numbers, shirts became “classics”, “grails” etc. That isn’t a dynamic anymore due to the increase in availability, not only through IHUK but through an increasingly large network of retailers.
A few years back after TFH folded I said to Giles, “you’re the only game in town now”,’ in reference to UHF’s. To a degree that is still the case, although I sense that UES flannels are getting some traction. UHF’s rarely end up on sale, when they do it’s outlying sizes. Would it hurt perception of the brand to have their increasingly iconic UHF’s reduced in price on a larger scale? Is it better for the brand to have sought-after “grail” items’again? I don’t know, but that may be part of the conversation. Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown.
EDIT: started writing this before Giles posted and finished and posted it afterwards, without seeing his answer.
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Plus, the weirdos on this forum are likely outliers anyway.
Haha, proud weirdo-outlier here
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One thing that strikes me as funny as I read back some of the comments is that calling things ugly is sort of a moot point, as it's so subjective. I will completely agree based on my own opinion that several of this year's UHFs were not my fave, but I do happen to know lots of people out there really loved them.
That does bring up a question I've always had, though: what rhyme or reason is there to designing a season's flannel patterns?
I do know that when FW22 was announced, there were clear winners — people really seemed to go nuts over the black and white herringbone, while something like the crazy check got less attention (at least iirc). Have y'all ever considered floating ideas for flannel patterns before going into production?
I know that could go against the way Haraki does things, but I feel like it would at least be a cool thing to maybe try once. I would venture to guess that as a general principle, people are willing to spend a big chunk of change on a shirt that's versatile, vs a really wild pattern they might not wear as much, and it might be worth a shot to sort of focus group / verify that a little.
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One thing that strikes me as funny as I read back some of the comments is that calling things ugly is sort of a moot point, as it's so subjective. I will completely agree based on my own opinion that several of this year's UHFs were not my fave, but I do happen to know lots of people out there really loved them.
I know what you mean here but I think part the reasoning for making those ugly comments is that some of those odd colors and patterns most likely sold because the IH colors are so rich and vibrant in real life that they are more about showcasing what's possible for IH and less about actually being attracted to the offering as a whole.
At least for me, I have a couple pieces that I'm just attracted to the beauty in the richness of the colors but I would much rather prefer a toned down ( less loud ) pattern and color combo. Earth tones and such.
The pieces that get the most use for me are simple, solid colored shirts….I don't think I'm alone. Maybe I am, or maybe we are all weirdos
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Maybe quantities produced for the crazy check or more loud patterned UHF's should be scaled back. Then you could produce more of the versatile patterned/colored UHF's. This should satisfy the customer/collector looking for a rare or scarce UHF while at the same time offering good availability in the popular colorways. However, predicting what colorways will be popular may be difficult to determine…. Also, maybe you guys already do this to a certain extent. I don't know that's my 2 cents anyhow. Keep up the good work your products are amazing.
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Kind of a shame that this discussion has turned to a critique of certain designs. Designing clothing is a craft that takes a lot of skill and many years to learn to do well. I trust Iron Heart's ability to bring out good collections. I wouldn't want the brand to make the output more conservative because some of us think doing so would sell better. It sounds more like the uhf numbers this year were a particular experiment about production, supply, and demand capacities. With respect and deference to the Iron Heart teams in Japan and UK, I trust they know what they are doing with colour. That design is why we're all here in the first place and it has been going for 20 years.
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Thanks, Nik.
If we wanted to play it safe, we could, then we would not be the brand we are. Part of what makes us what we are, is that we try some out-there shit. We know that not everything we make will sell, but we don't know what.
So let's move on from the "I don't like that colour or that design", it's not particularly helpful. I dislike black jeans, but they sell pretty well, I hate slim cuts, but they do pretty well too.
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Contrast right now to when I started buying IH. My first shirt was the 101 turquoise/grey. I had to go to the used market because at the time you couldn't buy a flannel from IH until they released a new shirt. If someone shows up today to IH, there's ample stock for them to buy a few things.
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If someone shows up today to IH, there's ample stock for them to buy a few things.
I think the above has to be a good thing at the end of the day. Perhaps less great for retailers to be holding stock they thought they’d sell, but a good thing form IHUK to offer choices of one of their flagship products to first time visitors.
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I’m not going to lie, but I used to enjoy the entire logging on 5 minutes before, hoping the internet doesn’t crash, not being interrupted while I tried to enter my details, the IH website crashing, but ultimately succeeding and or failing and trying it all over again on the next big release.
I love that everyone has a chance now and love to see how far things have progressed.
